The “all or nothing” argument is strange and ridiculous, but one that seems to be cropping up everywhere lately.
I've heard various versions of this stance over the years, but the latest one was that vegans exploit the hard work of bees because bees pollinate fruits and vegetables. So by eating fruits and vegetables, we are taking advantage of the bees and their hard work, and in some way causing suffering to their lives.
A real person formulated this counter-argument.
Another argument that was put to me in a comment recently was that vegans are hypocritical because they use smart phones and wear clothing made by cheap/child labour in foreign countries.
The basic premise of the “all or nothing” argument is this: if exploitation, violence or suffering exists somewhere in the world, and you are directly or indirectly involved, then screw it, you might as well just accept it all and enjoy its spoils. The fact that it exists justifies causing suffering and harm to others, because no matter what you do in life, you will hurt something, somewhere, either emotionally or physically.
What I find really strange about the varying forms of this argument is that people seemingly don't think before they speak.
One thing I am very passionate about is the failure of the education system to teach our children critical thinking skills. This “all or nothing” argument, in opposition to veganism — that we hear from adults — demonstrates that the education system is failing very badly.
I am not exempt from this. I had a terrible education. I struggle with this as an excuse though, as we all have the ability to self-educate and expand our minds.
While I find the stupidity somewhat amusing, I also find it quite sad that we live in a society where so many people can assert this argument and actually believe that it stands as credible opposition to wanting to reduce unnecessary suffering in the world.
It really makes me wonder whether people actually think much at all. When a person comes up with a counter-argument like this, do they not think through the potential pitfalls in their argument before they enter a debate?
But you step on bugs on the pavement all the time, so you're just a hypocrite!
Putting Vegans on a Pedestal
Is it that people are just misinformed about veganism?
Perhaps people make these silly arguments in the belief that vegans are self-defining as perfect human beings.
Perhaps they think that the goal of being vegan is to be morally flawless, and because of that, if a vegan steps on a insect, or inadvertently causes suffering in any way to a living organism, they are automatically a hypocrite and their mission in life is void.
At this point, the vegan might as well just go back to eating meat and wearing animal products. There is absolutely no point in trying to be a vegan – because you will cause harm in one way or another.
If this is the case, people are misunderstanding the point of veganism, and misappropriating the intention.
So, for the record, let's quickly cover the definition of veganism:
Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.
Essentially, the idea is to, as far as is possible and practical, reduce unnecessary suffering and exploitation to animals. For me personally, this extends to all sentient beings, which means humans too.
It's hardly an extreme position, is it?
Where possible, you are simply avoiding causing harm. Simple.
The notion that killing a mosquito to protect your baby from getting bitten in a country with rampant malaria invalidates your veganism, and if you do you should instantly order a steak and renounce your position, is just plain ridiculous.
If we lived our lives by this ‘all or nothing' notion, which seemingly some people do (hugely worrying) we would be living in a world of abject violence.
I think some people are misinformed, and most likely obtain all their information about veganism from Internet memes. But undoubtedly there are those who deliberately put vegans on a pedestal so that they can flippantly knock them down with lame rebuttals.
Vegans Are Killers Too!
I grow my own vegetables, and last week I accidentally crushed a small snail while weeding.
Anyone who does a spot of gardening knows this can happen.
So, because I killed this snail, should I give up my life of choosing not to unnecessarily initiate violence on other beings?
Should I just go and lop off my neighbour's dog's head and cook it for dinner?
Should I go and beat the crap out of that 17-year-old boy I saw drop litter outside the shop yesterday?
Should I go fox hunting tonight?
Or perhaps I should fly to Canada and club some baby seals to death just for the sake of it, or maybe trap a coyote and then shoot it in the head to make a Canada Goose jacket?
All because I accidentally crushed a baby snail!
It kind of makes sense to me though.
Living by the ‘all or nothing' reasoning makes it easy to rationalise the fact that 800 million people are starving, that 1-2 acres of rainforest are being chopped down every minute to make grazing land for cattle, that coral reefs are dying and ocean dead zones appearing, that the atmosphere is suffocated by greenhouse emissions…
“Oh well, we can't do anything about it, so “f***i*, let's just destroy it all”. With the caveat, “As long as I'm alright”, of course.
And that caveat makes sense too, because the one time I see people get interested in the veganism/a plant-based diet is when they realise that it can help them with a specific health issue.
What sort of destructive approach to life is this?
Maybe I should just accept it all too. As one friend said to me; “Humans are inherently selfish, you're fighting a losing battle”.
Why Hate on Something so Positive?
I have never heard a credible argument against veganism, but still, the hardest thing I find to wrap my head around is the fact that instead of looking at veganism as a positive thing, people will go out of their way to mock, insult and find flaws.
Instead of doing some research themselves into the abhorrent crimes committed against millions of animals on a daily basis, they instead choose to spend their time trolling on social media and getting so very happy when they think they have got one over on a vegan.
Instead of seeing someone who is making a stand against cruelty, exploitation and suffering as a potentially good person, as someone who wants to change the world and make it a better place to live, with less suffering and violence, they would rather create animosity and find fault with that person and their actions.
Instead of seeing someone's courage for not accepting the status quo and going against the grain, by standing up and saying; “No, this is unnecessary and unacceptable, and we need to make a change”, they just see a threat to their “right” to eat bacon.
This is a person who is trying to create a better world for you and your children.
This is a person who is looking at what the science says about the animal agriculture industry and its treatment of animals and destruction to the environment, and doing their best to wake people up.
This is a person who is saying; “I'm going to proactively do something about this. I am going to change the way I live to benefit the non-human sentient beings that we share this planet with, and reduce the destruction that animal agriculture is causing to our planet”.
Moreover, in many cases, vegans (those who eat a whole foods, plant-based diet) are promoting a healthier diet for our children, many of whom are suffering from diseases and conditions scientifically-proven to be linked to poor nutrition and the consumption of animal proteins.
And, get this: a plant-based diet is the only diet capable of reversing the most likely cause of early death in the people you love most!
That's heart disease.
So why the hell would you not be all for that?
It is absolutely baffling as to why people would pull out any old ridiculous, flawed rebuttal to try and discredit or facetiously oppose something that is inherently trying to do something positive, and would ultimately benefit us all.
This is not a religious ideology, or a cult. This is real. It is not fairy-tale. This is really happening, now.
This is about improving our reality: our health, the welfare of animals, the air we breathe, the very planet that supports our existence.
A species should want to preserve its environment and do everything it can to thrive and survive.
Cognitive Dissonance
Some argue that if we educate the next generation in a more a more compassionate way (a more “vegan way”), educating them to think critically about the decisions they make and how they affect the environment, other humans, and non-human sentient beings (animals), there would be less war, famine and unnecessary violence and suffering in the world.
Not all vegans would agree that this would necessarily be the case, but this nonsensical ‘all or nothing' argument, which seems to have become a standard rebuttal for veganism, leads me to believe that this theory is quite feasible.
We are programmed to believe that certain animals must be treated in this way to provide a food source. In the same way, we are programmed to believe that war/foreign interventions are an inevitable part of life, that democracy is the result of a two-party election, that burning fossil fuels is necessary, etc.
From a young age, we are fed a narrative for a number of important issues. This narrative becomes so engrained in our psyche that when presented with contradictory information that may prove our beliefs to be wrong we become anxious and defensive.
People react differently: Some people shy away, others lash out, and a few will be positively triggered to investigate the information in a quest for truth. The latter are generally those who change the world for the better, but not before they are ridiculed and vehemently opposed.
This is why it takes substantial change so long to occur, because people resist any information, no matter how credible, if it contradicts the narrative they were raised upon.
I mean, come on, we're still driving around in petrol and diesel cars, despite the damage science shows us it's doing. Meanwhile, the ‘climate change hoax' movement is getting bigger!
This is why people come up with such ridiculous opposition to veganism; because they are automatically triggered to defend a belief they have held since a very young age.
Most people don't know why they hold this belief, but it's what they have always followed. Anything outside of this belief feels uncomfortable and they resist it.
Moreover, the majority hold this belief, so they take comfort in social approval and defend it on that basis.
Perhaps it is the case that you only see these excuses/counter-arguments as ridiculous once you have freed your mind from the narrative. I'm quite sure I have been guilty of making ridiculous opposing statements for the same reasons. Perhaps at one time I said the same in relation to veganism.
This is something psychologist Melanie Joy discusses in the book Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows.
She notes that:
Violence against certain species of animals is normalised in childhood. We are raised in an invisible belief system that shapes our perception of the meat, eggs, and dairy we eat, so that we love some animals and eat others without really knowing or acknowledging why. This “Carnism” is sustained by complex psychological and social mechanisms that cause us to unknowingly act against our core values, our own interests and the interests of others.
The information put forth by vegans causes cognitive dissonance. It creates a mental conflict as a person's beliefs or assumptions are contradicted by new information.
When someone is unravelling the truth about your biology and nutritional requirements and it contradicts everything you are conditioned to believe, it becomes uncomfortable and you start grabbing at straws.
The unease or tension that the conflict arouses in people is relieved by one of several defensive maneuvers: they reject, explain away, or avoid the new information; persuade themselves that no conflict really exists; reconcile the differences; or resort to any other defensive means of preserving stability or order in their conceptions of the world and of themselves.
=> You can buy Melanie Joy's book on Amazon
Suffering Is Inevitable – But That's No Excuse
The reality is that suffering in life is inevitable.
Sometimes we do have to choose the lesser of two evils, and suffering must occur, either way.
From the day we are born we are dying. So inevitably, the majority of us will experience illness, old age, cognitive decline, and unfortunately some form of debilitating disease as we age.
Animals are not exempt from this.
And yes, we will all accidentally kill animals.
We will all kill a slug, a snail, a mosquito. Some of us might run over a fox, cat or dog.
And yes, in the event that I was stuck on a desert island, with no food source except chickens and wild pigs, I would be the first to kill one and feed myself and anyone else stuck on the island.
This is the case in point, and what the ‘all or nothing' counter-argument just doesn't consider: Suffering is inevitable, but that doesn't justify initiating violence and suffering on another being.
And we are not talking about a one-off, or even momentary and necessary act of violence: the animal agriculture industry perpetually exploits animals by selectively breeding them to the detriment of their health; imprisons them in an unnatural environment; feeds them an unnatural diet; and either enslaves them for their secretions, or transports them against their will to a slaughterhouse to murder them in an undignified and evil way.
And people support this. Why?
I get the cognitive dissonance. I get the knee-jerk scrambling for a counter-argument. I know how uncomfortable it is to look in the mirror and realise that you have been part of something so evil for so long – I've been there.
But as an adult, you know right from wrong. We raise our kids to defend themselves, sure, but not to bully, hit, kick, maim and kill unnecessarily.
If you have to kill in self-defence, or to eat to survive, fair enough.
We know that we can live perfectly healthy lives on a plant-based diet, while reducing this unnecessary suffering to animals. This is also a much better choice for the planet that our children will inherit and live and breathe on.
Just because suffering exists, doesn't mean we should create more of it. We should work to reduce it, in the same way we do our best to reduce the suffering people experience in old age.
If you don't give a crap about animals and the pain they suffer and you just want more meat in your gob, well, you have that choice.
But please, before you open your mouth and form an opposition to veganism, please think for a moment about the credibility of your argument: whether it brings value to the debate, what the scientific consensus is, whether it actually makes any sense. Explore the opinion in your mind before you write it down and comment on Facebook, or say it to someone’s face-to-face; or worse, teach your children such stupidity.
There is a difference between the idea itself to avoid killing living creatures and the way they are kept. In the second case if meat is produced by killing (in all cases), why do you have the right to say anything against milk? Yes, it is far more tasty than milk and a lot of very useful products are made with its help, but as you state our taste is not a moral attitude. But still-no one is hurt, or perhaps there are some things that i don’t know but the idea is not wrong. Milk is really useful, firstly because of calcium. It is essential for the health of bones. Which is important. Are there many alternatives? Of course there are some but how many?
Ok, that’s one point. But a mucu-much more serious point is: what if the people who want to be against milk cannot eat BEANS? Because there are illnesses there are definitely some when you can’t eat them or at least can eat few. For other people lentils ant others are really really good. But exceptions matter and beans are protein. If meat is also omitted then where will protein come from? Some grains but not enough. Also if you have allergies, there are also many more questions concerning vegetable food.
I lack calories that is a strong problem for me, I weigh 50 kilos and my height is 170. I can eat pasta. But if i had some illness I wouldn’t eat this food. Then only cottage cheese would be right for me.
Feb 24, 2024 at 10:53 am
Hi Tanya,
Thank you for your questions.
The dairy industry involves its own ethical issues, including the separation of calves from their mothers, the treatment of dairy cows, and the eventual slaughter of cows once they are no longer productive. Also the slaughter of male calves that can’t obviously produce milk. While milk may have nutritional benefits like calcium, there are plenty of negative health effects. Please see here: https://www.theplantway.com/20-ways-dairy-destroys-your-health/
People have been led to believe that milk is ultimate calcium source. It is a good source, but you can get calcium elsewhere: see here: https://www.theplantway.com/plant-based-calcium-sources/ and https://www.forksoverknives.com/wellness/milk-myth-why-you-dont-need-dairy-for-calcium/
2. You raise concerns about obtaining enough protein and calories on a plant-based diet, particularly if someone has allergies or dietary restrictions. It’s true that plant-based diets require careful planning to ensure adequate intake of essential nutrients like protein, iron, and B vitamins. However, there are plenty of plant-based protein sources besides beans, such as tofu, tempeh, lentils, chickpeas, nuts, seeds, and whole grains. Please also note that pretty much every food contains protein. And let us not forget that only plants can make protein! Protein doesn’t come from animals it comes from plants. Do you know of anyone who has had protein deficiency? Please see here for protein options: https://www.theplantway.com/high-protein-vegetables/
If you would like to eat a plant-based whole foods diet then consulting with a registered plan-based dietitian can help you develop a balanced and nutritious meal plan that aligns with your health goals and dietary preferences.
Mar 05, 2024 at 6:29 pm
Peter,
Nothing wrong with a vegan diet (although their is not one recorded vegan population in evolution, just watch the television show Alone, and you will see why), it is definitely in the top five healthiest diets in my opinion (only in a modern world), and I do prescribe them all the time, for the patient that it is appropriate for (familial hypercholesterolemia). I work with morbidly obese individuals who wish to lose weight and reverse their disease states, but I would never put a person who has celiac disease or non-celiac-gluten sensitivity on a vegan diet. Gluten, or the gliadin fraction in wheat, is the defense mechanism of a plant, that acts as a gut irritant when animals eat it, which is a signal to the body to not eat it (nightshades in tomatoes acts as a toxin, and millions of people can’t eat them). I could detail hundreds of plants and what they do to humans after they consume them, and the resulting health conditions that ensue (lectins, saponins, phytates, trypsin inhibitors, etc.). Each year I have at least 10 to 20 patients that have 100 to 400 pounds to lose, that have switched to a vegan diet, and they gained even more weight, mostly due to the nature of the increase in ultra-processed food consumption, which does not does not work well with this specific population. So a vegan diet is not appropriate for every individual, not even close. Even if your goal is to save the planet, everyone can’t eat a vegan diet.
My major issue is the hypocritical nature of vegans towards every other diet that is unlike their own. Avocados and almonds for example, require bee pollination, but billions of bees are killed each years in growing these foods, and the bees are intentionally shipped to grow sites (something you did not mention in you writing), and when the crops are harvested they die. Billions and billions, a resource that we are losing globally. These foods are a staple for a vegan diet, and the significant amount of water that is required to grow almonds, it’s a climate disaster in and of itself. To grow soy, you have kill everything above the ground and below it. You kill every snake, every frog, every mouse, every vol, every mole, every worm, and every quail, etc. You kill them all. If the first slaughter doesn’t kill them, the glyphosate poisoning will finish them off through neurological damage.
Aug 04, 2023 at 2:20 pm
Hi Steve,
Let me quickly address some of your points:
While it’s true that ancient human populations might not have followed plant-based diets as we know them today, there are many examples of populations that consumed a very high percentage of plant foods. That said, it depends how far you want to go back. Recent evidence suggests that the earliest humans evolved from ape-like ancestors without first shifting to a meat-based diet. Research suggests that the first members of the Homo genus ate mostly vegetation from trees and shrubs, just like their ancestors Australopithecus, see here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-017-0159.
Regardless, appeals to historic behavior are an unreliable guide to which diet is best for modern human health. Indeed, tech entrepreneur Bryan Johnson is proving this by reversing aging in real time. His diet, while unconventional, contains no meat. Look him up, it’s very interesting and all measured by science.
Research indicates that modern humans can thrive on well-planned plant-based diets; indeed, in populations where plant-based foods make up the majority of nutrition we see greater health outcomes. The more plant-based whole foods the better. See the Blue Zones, for example. Studies like the EPIC-Oxford study have shown that vegans have lower risks of heart disease, diabetes, and certain cancers compared to non-vegans. But let’s be careful not to confuse being vegan (an ethical stance) and a whole foods plant based diet. One can of course be vegan and unhealthy. After all, even McDonalds has vegan options.
The American Dietetic Association states that well-planned vegetarian diets, including vegan diets, are appropriate for all life stages and provide health benefits such as reduced risk of chronic diseases. I’ve been whole foods plant based for 9 years now and just had a 40+ health check. I am 44. Upon reviewing my results, my doctor deemed me extremely healthy. Of course, exercise is a big part of maintaining good health.
While gluten-containing grains like wheat are staples in many diets, plant-based diets can easily be adapted to exclude gluten sources. Studies like this one https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18348715/#:~:text=Gluten%2Dfree%20vegan%20diet%20induced,months%20(p%20%3D%200.090) show that a gluten-free vegan diet can lead to improved cardiovascular health.
Plant compounds like lectins, saponins, and phytates are present in various foods. However, research published in the “Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry” indicates that cooking and processing can significantly reduce the levels of these compounds, making them perfectly safe for consumption. There are many myths unsupported by science, particularly those surrounding lectins: https://www.drfuhrman.com/blog/147/the-real-story-on-lectins
Weight gain on a vegan diet is from poor food choices, just like any diet. Studies usually show plant-based (vegan) diets as the most effective for weight loss. See here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466943/ and here: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2800277#:~:text=Mean%20percentage%20weight%20loss%20was,2.3%25%20for%20vegan)%20assessments. And here; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3967195/ Again, I must stress that one should always differentiate between ethics and diet. A “vegan diet” is an unfortunate label, and if we took a cross section of vegans we would of course find a cross section of health. However, take a cross section of strictly whole-foods plant-based eaters and the outcome would be positively one-sided.
Plant-based diets have a lower environmental impact compared to diets heavy in animal products. According to the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), animal agriculture is responsible for a significant portion of greenhouse gas emissions and deforestation, while plant-based diets have a smaller carbon footprint. Have a look here at the damage caused: https://www.cowspiracy.com/facts
The fact is, animal agriculture’s land use has a far greater negative impact on biodiversity compared to plant agriculture, even accounting for pollination needs. Moreover, you don’t have to eat avocados or almonds, and it’s not like meat-eaters don’t eat these too. Soy production does have environmental concerns, but please be informed that the largest percentage (77%) of global soy production is used for livestock feed. Take this out of the equation and deforestation wouldn’t be a problem. https://ourworldindata.org/soy#:~:text=The%20majority%20(77%25)%20of,processed%20into%20soybean%20'cake‘.
Veganism is not about being perfect; it is about reducing the harm and suffering one is causing as much as is practically possible. I am all for reducing mono-crop farming, increasing home-grown and veganic production, and having the least destructive impact on the environment.
Aug 07, 2023 at 5:25 pm
Hi there. I am curious, how much nutrition did you receive in medical schiool?. PCRM, the
physicians committe for responsible medicine, started by Neal Barnard, M.D., has had to sue Medical schools to have them give residents a minimum of 25 hours of nutrition. Medical schools did not want
to do this, willingly. And many still resist.
Humans were vegetarian before we were indoctrinated into eating dead animals around yeshua’s time.
Yeshua, his family, and all of his apostlles were vegetarians as well as Essenes (some use the slang term, Ebionites). Around that time they were jewish Christians as well. Essenes were one of three main sects at the time. Interestingly, the other two, Phariseees and sadducees, were the only ones’ mentioned in the Bible. Why would a world that embraced animal pagan sacrifice and eating the blood sacrifices (as well as sacrificing children) want free-thinking spiritual vegetarians around?. And, why would they want books and other writings of those Esseene’s shared with others?. Why would our modern manipulated history and religious books include this information?. Of course you are completekly unaware of this true information. You have been manipulated and lied to as we all have been.
Second is you have a big misconceeption. Veganism is not a “diet”, as omnnivorism, keto, paleo, and carnivore, are. It is a comapassionate lifestyle that respects all animal life and the environment as sacred. Veganism values the life of the animal and non-animal food choices are a part of that.
Thirdly, it is up to individual to do their homework and learn what a healthy food regimen is, whether that be vegan or another choice. There are tons of unhealthy vegan and other processed foods available, but that does not make them healthy, nutritious, or worthwhile.
Obese humans have both emotional and physical problems that veganism alone cannot cure. It is estimated that 29 million Americans will have an eating disorder in their lifetime, and 10,000 American humans every year die from an eating disorder. Knowing that about 5% of humans are vegan (or vegetarian), that means that 95% or so of those statistics are omnivores. Consuming a vegan “diet” does not cause the eating disorder in the first place, nor does it solve emotional eating problems.
You may have an interest in watching videos of Dr. Garth Davis, who I believe was a bariatric surgeon for obese patients. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaRaHt5x6n4&t=1096s
Aug 07, 2023 at 7:07 pm
I liked this article, insightful
Aug 28, 2022 at 12:31 pm
The only reply worth the energy consists of “wow, what a cute naive retard.” And a pat on the head. Not only do you profit from the Bee’s work you deprive the earth of the seeds and natural decomposition of the fruit. People like you are a waste of space.
Sep 06, 2019 at 2:58 am
The issue is that vegans spend so much time telling everyone that they are (morally) superior because they are vegan. A side issue is that some people can’t process non-haem iron, and others can’t process betacarotene into Vitamin A efficiently, so there are people that can’t survive on a vegan diet.
Sep 03, 2019 at 11:39 am
I’ve read about hereditary hemochromatosis where people absorb too much iron, but not people who can’t absorb non-heme iron. I’m sure the number of people who have this condition is extremely small and they could easily meet their quota using lab-grown meat or by eating a few crickets each week (note that crickets have almost three times as much soluble iron than beef).
Can you link me to a study on people who can’t process beta-carotene; I’m genuinely interested in this.
It’s worth noting that the definition of veganism is to reduce, as much as is possible, the suffering caused to sentient beings. If a person has a specific medical condition that requires them to eat part of an animal to stay alive then that is what they must do.
At the end of the day, just do as little harm as you possibly can. That should be the default position for us all, surely?
Sep 03, 2019 at 1:00 pm
Your confusing practicable with practical.
It is possible to stop using animal products that people claiming to be vegan use. They just don’t want to.
Mar 17, 2022 at 9:56 pm
I don’t disagree. Pretty much everyone can, if they truly want to. I think the biggest factor is the social cost. People fear being “the vegan”, the odd one out, not fitting in, being seen to be difficult, anti-farmers, “lefty”, “soyboy”, “liberal”. It takes a little courage to look in the mirror, admit the truth, take a stand and speak out, knowing that people will speak about you negatively behind your back.
Mar 18, 2022 at 12:04 pm
Jethro Kloss. Nailed that Coffin closed. The book called Back to Eden., he says and I quote. “ cow milk is for cow babies and breast milk is for new born babies and plant milk is for the rest of us. Sometimes we want to do what we have been raised to do……. With out asking any questions.
Apr 10, 2022 at 7:32 pm
Glad you don’t disagree.
Smart phones, computers, and servers are all made with and contain animal products that are possible and practicable to avoid.
The simple act of making a comment or viewing this site proves the person isn’t vegan.
Apr 10, 2022 at 8:53 pm
No it doesn’t. Veganism is a way of living that attempts to exclude all forms of animal exploitation and cruelty, whether for food, clothing or any other purpose. The idea is to live a non-violent lifestyle, as much as is practically possible. I need to use the internet to earn money and feed my children, so I can’t avoid using a server or computer. What I can do is voice my opinion and campaign for those who make servers and computers and phones to seek alternatives and help reduce the suffering they cause.
Apr 11, 2022 at 12:48 pm
You absolutely could. You could choose a profession that doesn’t require use of the internet manual labor for instance no animal used to make a shovel or sledgehammer. You could also write to everyone using hemp paper and organic pencils. A stamp is less imprint than a plastic computer, and plastic cell phone made by child labor. See that’s the hypocrisy. You too choose convenience over conviction when it suits you or makes life easier.
Aug 26, 2023 at 3:57 am
I don’t really mind what you eat, I make my own well informed choices. I do mind when you keep telling me that your choices are better than mine, better for the planet, the environmnet, ones health, better for the children better for the bees. Please don’t judge me I’m doing the best I can in a dying world and my soul hurts
Sep 05, 2019 at 5:45 pm
Even if that’s the truth? That a plant based diet, ie vegan diet is better for the planet? Better for people’s health? How is the truth of something judging you?
Oct 27, 2019 at 11:48 pm
They’re all facts though Sophia
Apr 20, 2021 at 3:26 am
Thank you for your thoughts, but i do not believe you see the massive arrogance in the world that surrounds and glorifies the eating of dead animals as normal, natural and necessary. When you are one that is in the minority, as vegans are, you have an ethical and moral need to have your voice heard above the screams of 70 billion farm animals killed every year. Those animals cannot speak for themselves.
There are many truth tellers in the world, but I find when humans do not like the message, they blame and criticize the messengers. Are humans who speak up and urge dog and cat holders to spay and neuter their animals, morally superior? Are humans who speak out against racial injustices, morally superior? are women’s groups who make humans aware of rapes of women (and men), morally superior? Are humans who speak up against pedophiles (child rapists), morally superior?. Are omnivores who point out injustices to horses (in horse racing and breeding), greyhounds (in greyhound racing), or the horrors of trophy hunting or canned hunting, morally superior?, Were the abolitionists 220 years ago who spoke out against enslaving black humans, morally superior?.
Also, there are deficiencies in the diets of many vegans (and the diets of omnivores as well).
However, heme iron is an unhealthy addiction for many omnivores and it actually leads to iron excesses which is more dangerous than any iron deficiency. This is why the human body was designed to consume the subtler iron from plant foods such as beans, legumes, prunes, spinach, quinoa, oatmeal, etcetera. I have never met a vegan who could not process plant iron unless they had malabsorption issues. However, I do have an omnivore friend who consumes an excess of black tea which severely reduces her stores of plant iron as a result.
Vitamin A is fat soluble. True carnivore and omnivore animals can detoxify vitamin A from their liver (they got from eating animal flesh and organs). However, humans cannot, so excess vitamin A sticks in our liver and can causes cancers and liver toxicity. Many “carnivore” humans have to give blood to rid their body of the unnatural animal fatty vitamin A from animal products they never were designed to consume.
Many humans failing on a “vegan” diet fail because of three reasons.
1–they went into veganism quickly, without education and knowing the pluses and minuses involved. (For instance, they eat an inadequate dietary choice and not enough calories, or, many eat disordered diets, jumping from one to another)
2–they go into veganism for their health and not for ethical or moral reasons. They get swayed by other humans as they cannot deal with being different and lack a social structure as a vegan
3–They do not take B12 and get proper help when they have health problems because of #1.
I was raised as an omnivore and became an ethical whole food vegan over twenty years ago.
Some vegans have been accused of being “too sensitive”, however, what does that say about the critic?.
Here are interesting videos about heme iron, and an interesting video by Dr. Klaper about “failed” vegans.
Cheers.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/does-heme-iron-cause-cancer/
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/heme-induced-n-nitroso-compounds-and-fat-oxidation/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tJyb1wTxg4&t=3s
May 02, 2022 at 7:12 pm
Some great points here.
In regards to point 1 in your list, I think this is key. The large majority of people lack a basic education in nutrition. The average person has no idea of the nutritional content of what they eat. So it’s easy to convince people that meat and dairy is essential for health.
I was lucky enough to be taught essential aspects of nutrition by my mother, who was part of the whole foods movement in the 80s. She ate some meat but mostly fish instead, along with a whole foods plant based diet.
The one “good” thing about meat – despite its negative effects on the body, and the moral implications, of course – is that it provides a heavy dose of a number of essential nutrients in one go. So a person can eat a very poor diet (processed foods and lack of fruit and veg) but still avoid a serious deficiency.
Eating a plant-based diet requires a focus on getting enough of specific nutrients such as B12, iron, zinc, DHA/EPA to ensure optimal health. This is all easy to do, if you pay attention and bother to learn. And in fact it is very liberating, because you pay greater attention to what is in your food and the nutritional content of different fruits and vegetables and nuts and seeds, etc.
It has also inspired me to grow my own food.
Humans have lost touch with the soil and the knowledge of vegetables (mushrooms in particular) and wild flowers and herbs. Nature provides everything, outside of eating flesh. It’s just knowledge. Even B12 is not an issue if you are regularly eating water lentils and certain types of seaweed – but supplementation is measured and therefore very effective.
My point is, potentially it is easier to become deficient of something essential on a whole foods plant based diet (but this is because of lack of knowledge), but also easier to become much healthier
Ethics aside, it isn’t a good idea to “go vegan” if you just plan on eating vegan mock meat products, microwave meals and barely any fruit and veg. You’ll be as unhealthy as if you live on McDonald’s, bacon rolls and hotdogs, Maybe not as unhealthy 🙂 – but you see my point.
May 03, 2022 at 9:30 am
Hi there. You point out the main reason I believe the “carnivore” humans say they “feel better” by eating just animals. When someone eliminates allergens and oils, white flour, processed foods, sugar, chocolate, caffeine, glyphosate laden-foods, and even gluten or dairy, they would naturally “feel better”. When they were actually “deficient”, before “carnivore” (as a result of their poor quality food choices) in iron, D3/K2, or zinc, and they start consuming animal products that contain those, its’ like taking a supplement, and they would “feel better”. And, when they may have been overweight or obese consuming those original foods they ate, they would “feel better”. And, when they are eating LESS, and, intermittent fasting on “carnivore”, versus stuffing themselves on the previous unhealthy foods, they would “feel better”. And, when they are jacked up and stimulated from the amounts of adrenaline, stress hormones, and animal hormones from the 2-4 pounds per day of animal they eat, they would be “high” from that and “feel better”. However, there is no fiber in any animal based foods and severe constipation is normal part of being a human “carnivore’.
Aug 07, 2023 at 7:25 pm
I think they have a good point…IF you’re preaching about veganism to them.
Vegan: Eating animal products is wrong because animals suffer through it
Meat-Eater: But they’re just animals, not humans
V: I care about the suffering of sentient beings in general, not just humans.
ME: so why are you driving about in a $100,000 car whilst people on this very road are homeless and starving. You could spend that money differently and stop human suffering?
V: I didn’t personally cause that suffering. My position is to not be the direct cause. I’m OK with letting suffering happen.
ME: Well you didn’t personally kill the meat I’m eating….but here you are trying to tell me to stop. You are trying to stop suffering you are not the direct cause of here but not in other areas which just “co-incidentally” allow you to continue living your cushy life but mouthing off at others. I guess talk is cheap.
It is hypocrisy when veganism is framed like that. The truth for most is that we draw arbitrary lines on where we cause or allow suffering. We are all hypocrits
May 16, 2019 at 8:03 am
So you created a fictional conversation to construct a straw man argument. I’ll entertain it all the same.
Any vegan, not that I know any, who is driving a $100,000 car is clearly in the top 5% of earners and therefore paying more tax than 95% of the population to fund social security and housing initiatives that the government is elected to implement. So in this situation the 100k car-driving vegan is already doing more to alleviate “human suffering” than the majority of the population to help others through their tax payments.
Note: the vegan in this instance is not paying to have these people slaughtered for food. They have access to food, shelters, addiction recovery initiatives and housing schemes, which the vegan funds through tax. Not to mention that this evil vegan may also be involved in charitable causes that help humans and animals. Most vegans I know don’t just help animals but also the homeless and charities like Cancer Research and Child Leukemia, etc.
The reality is that no one needs to be homeless, and indeed the statistics, at least here in the UK show that the large majority of people who are homeless are so not because they can’t be housed but because they are unable to cope. The large majority are addicts and or suffering depression or some form of mental illness.
Facts:
More than half of homeless deaths are because of drug poisoning, liver disease or suicide.
80% of homeless people in England reported that they had mental health issues, with 45% having been diagnosed with a mental health condition
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46613609
https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/statistics/mental-health-statistics-homelessness
So even if the 100k car-driving vegan sold that car and gave all that money to a few random homeless people, what do you think the outcome would be?
It is the job of the elected government to ensure that such people get help, yet they are negligent in that duty. Although in many cases there are those who simply refuse help.
But what does this have to do with unnecessarily enslaving, torturing and killing defenseless beings?
Actually, maybe you do have a point. We could solve the homeless issue and put these people out of their misery. We could slaughter them and eat them, in the same way you wouldn’t think twice about taking the life of an animal, or paying someone else to do it.
So, let me use your moral compass to clarify your argument.
I pay tax and do charity work to help alleviate human suffering. I don’t pay others to enslave, rape, torture and slaughter defenseless animals. But I drive a car worth probably 3.5k second hand. So you are saying that because I have that car and don’t sell it to help a homeless human, that justifies your action of paying to eat the corpses of animals that have been needlessly slaughtered against their will, fighting for every last breath to stay alive, in the same way a human homeless person would.
Congratulations. You win the monthly prize for the most ridiculous defense of unnecessary slaughter.
May 16, 2019 at 10:15 am
Why does you just admit that most of those homeless deaths from the round about causes you listed are simply that they drank themselves to death or finally overdosed. There comes a point where they become rats and when you have a rat problem you dont feed them. They dont care about you or I, only their next fix. And if you think they wont rob or kill you for that next fix then you are delusional. So pick your arguments carefully. I get what you are trying to prove but you really are kinda looking like that self righteous hypocrite. I live in Seattle and we have a druggie infestation like you cannot imagine. Compassion and enablement have allowed the vagrants to thrive without consequence. Guess what everyone is pissed.
Sep 15, 2019 at 7:52 am
I’m not sure what your point is. I think you are agreeing with me. I didn’t say they cared about me or wouldn’t think twice to rob me – I think you misunderstood the point I was making. For the record I don’t agree with homeless people being allowed to rot on the street. The government should never allow alcoholics and drug addicts to pose a public health risk to the rest of the population. The way to help such people is not to toss them a few coins out of guilt, but to get them rehabilitated and retrained to be able to re-enter society with their dignity in tact and new found confidence and self-respect.
Oct 03, 2019 at 6:06 pm
I once looked up statistics for the US and as the income brackets go up into that $100k range there are less vegans statistically, despite one would think it would be so much easier for them and it’d be more, because supposedly veganism is oh so expensive. The most vegans though were in the “Under $60k” range, though I wish it had gotten a little more specific since I’m tech under $60k, though I’m also a vegan in the US “living below the line” (ie of poverty). The statistics were interesting, though saddening at the same time
Oct 27, 2019 at 11:53 pm
This comment still irritates me with its ignorance, watch some vegans on YouTube, we don’t promote suffering of even other humans, that is why some of us only buy our clothes second hand because fast fashion is not only horrible for the environment, it’s not exactly wonderful for the people having to produce it. A lot of vegans are starting to get into minimalism too because in a lot of places around the world we are overconsuming and buying unnecessary crap, to where those wasted resources to produce these unnecessary things that are just wants not needs, could do wonders to help so many people in various ways if we took those resources and did something different with them or even took the money going into producing unnecessary things could do wonders for people, even the homeless you speak of. We overproduce that unnecessary crap too. Halloween even bothers me now, when I see the stores pop up selling people one-use items (they are most of the time) that will either end up sitting around in the person’s basement/attic or worse in the landfills. What are we doing producing crap like that, when the planet is in so much trouble? And, therefore the people on said planet are also in trouble! Not only that here in the US we produce enough food to feed 2 more Americas that ends up in dumpsters. I have spent time researching dumpster diving and spent time in groups focused on the subject. While we have people going to bed hungry, going without food or starving. I felt depressed being in those groups seeing all the waste, seeing how one Old Navy store was cutting their clothes up when putting them in their dumpster so no one could actually wear them if they wanted to, despite the one picture someone took there was a clothing donation bin feet away from the Old Navy dumpster. My heart breaks being in those groups and then my heart breaks even more now that I have gone vegan, watching Cowspiracy, What the Health and Dominion. The planet is being harmed, people’s health is being harmed and nonhuman beings are being tortured, mutilated and killed unnecessarily. There is no reason for anyone to be dying of starvation on this planet though or even going without food ever when we already produce enough food to feed everyone if we’d stop feeding all of that to livestock. Your view of vegans is so skewed from the actual reality of who we are. A lot of us care as much for humans as we do for nonhuman beings because that is possible, to care about multiple things at once and even to be taking action against multiple things at once. I could also point out how many more vacant homes in the US we have than homeless people, they are typically bank-owned properties and some sit vacant for years, all whilst we have people sleeping in the streets homeless or squatting. I am pro-squatters rights now, after looking around my city and seeing all these bank-owned properties that have sat vacant for years. Despite there isn’t much I can do about that, I definitely care about homeless people, even if I struggle so much financially I can’t exactly do much personally to help them. I just do what I can, I think that’s all any of us can do when some of these problems are massive or are a tangled web of problems. We need to start pulling at the strings though and detangle the mess we humans have made
Oct 29, 2019 at 2:17 pm
I had the same thought about Halloween. We have these plastic, single use junk items being sold everywhere. Everything and anything you can think of with a spooky theme. The kids will use the stuff once and then want new stuff next year. On the one hand leaders speak of the need to become more environmentally friendly, yet they will encourage this because more products produced = more money spent = economic growth. This model is broken, and will be the death of us.
Oct 29, 2019 at 3:23 pm
Hi. When you are different you get the blunt of the criticism. I have been an ethical vegan for 20 years. Humans want vegans to make their choices, but don’t tell me about it –please keep your moth shut–or tell me what to do.
I believe vegans are intimidating to omnivore humans. Even the word “vegan” signifies that harming and killing animals for human food is bad. Understand that as long as you are different you will be put under the spotlight. You make others uncomfortable.
Humans want to believe they are kind, loving, compassionate. Veganism itself does shine the light on the fact that by eating animals, it is not a kind, loving, compassionate act. Humans do not want to be reminded of the cruelty what they choose to participate in. They do not want to change.
Criticizing vegans is a defense mechanism as if to say, these (vegans) are bad, arrogant, superior acting, unhealthy, malnourished, high-minded, judgemental, a “CULT”……so therefore I am justified remaining as an omnivore.
I am safe and secure within the majority of humans that are, obviously, natural omnivores. It is perfectly okay, healthy, and normal to eat animals. The vegans are bad and my choice is good.
I am not superior to other humans by pointing out the truths about animal agriculture, the destruction of the environment, or the health problems associated with eating flesh, blood and other animals products. I am not superior, period, I am simply human.
Cheers.
May 02, 2022 at 7:29 pm
Spot on. It’s a defense mechanism to criticize vegans.
One thing I find interesting is that much of the open abuse of veganism comes from the gym/body building fraternity. Many “fitness gurus” market themselves with the persona of being a “real man”: a strong, muscular protector. But what “real man” would unnecessarily murder a defenseless animal?
Yet the same guys would be quick to speak out against a bully, or domestic violence against women.
I’ve was involved in sport and gyms for many years, so I know the common thinking around meat and strength. And this was one of the last arguments I used on myself before becoming vegan. “How can I say I love animals and then pay to have them abused and killed on my behalf, when I know I don’t need to eat them to be healthy”.
I was a hypocrite.
A “real man” would protect those animals by speaking up, not look away or justify it with unfounded excuses. I asked myself what type of person I wanted to be: the weak person who looked strong but participated in the abuse, or the strong person who, despite what names people called me or what they said behind my back, had the strength to speak up for those weaker than myself.
May 03, 2022 at 9:48 am
Thank you for your honesty. It is sad what we do to boys and males in the world. There are strange standards for strength and masculinity that are hurting males in many ways. Circumcision is a horrible practice to do to baby boys. It shuts down their feelings, among other problems. The worst thing you can call a boy, is a ‘girl”. This sets up a hierarchy where males are superior and girls are inferior. Also, most boys are taught that eating animals is masculine, and therefore eating vegetables and salads is girly. The whole system shows that its’ okay for males to get angry and fight, which normalizes violence. I see violence, wars, and aggression as direct results of the energy of eating a violent diet. This does not imply that vegans cannot get angry or even aggressive or violent. However Pythagoras back then witnessed the difference in behavior of plant-eaters versus animal eaters. Aggression and violence were seen in the animal eaters. Males have been taught that eating animals is strong, powerful, sexy and makes you manly. I admire vegan men who are strong enough to have compassion through veganism. I find it interesting how vegetarians and vegans are criticized for being too sensitive and peaceful.
Yes, a real man would not harm a gentle defenseless animal, but eating animals is not phrased that way. Sadly, this is exactly what “hunters” do to restore their feelings of inferiority, low-self-esteem, and low masculinity. A lack of emotion, crying, and no empathy are masculine? it actually leads to acts of violence and heart attacks. No, the opposite is true, compassion is a strength.
Can any other readers comment on these issues? cheers…..
May 06, 2022 at 6:47 pm
Beautifully put, Rachel. You are a kindred spirit.
May 09, 2022 at 11:23 am
I’ve got a friend who is out and out vegan as he reminds us every day. However, he earns his livelihood working for a company that generates over £2 billion in revenue through animal based products.
The problem veganism faces is that it is vastly viewed as an elitist ‘cult’ and that many actually do still knowingly contribute towards the problem.
You can’t be anti smoking and sell them in your corner shop.
Jan 07, 2019 at 11:22 am
Being “a vegan” is not a declaration of being a perfect human. Many of us have jobs that at some point in the production or service chain impact animals or the environment. The idea is that you do your best to avoid causing unnecessary suffering and do what you can to bring about change. Those who don’t agree with unnecessary violence and exploitation are in the minority and have to live in the same world as the majority. We still have to work and operate within the same system.
I’ve been in a similar position. I was asked to work on a campaign once that involved a big meat company. I refused on ethical grounds and was allowed to opt out. Not everyone would be able to do this. Perhaps your friend will consider a new job moving forward that enables him to further reduce his impact.
It’s not about “being vegan”. Reducing the negative impact on other humans, animals and the environment is something that everyone claims to want to do, but seldom do people take action and most just criticize those who do.
The only problem veganism faces is that it is called “veganism”. To me its far more normal and less extreme to follow a plant-based lifestyle than one based on unnecessary violence and exploitation. It would be in everyone’s best interests to reject the word “vegan” and simply adopt the position that the unnecessary licensing of violence to oppress humans and animals and to destroy the planet is an evil that needs to be eradicated.
Jan 08, 2019 at 6:34 pm
Many use the term, “plant-based”, but it is not definitive. Many like using the term to describe themselves when they eat plants (and also consume some animals). So few Americans today consume enough fruits and vegetables, especially leafy greens. It does not mean the human is vegan, just that they eat more plants than the average human does.
Aug 07, 2023 at 6:38 pm
I guess people will always open things up to interpretation, but I like to differentiate between the diet and the ethics. The reason for this is that it is very easy to attack “the vegan diet” as unhealthy, since many vegans do eat lots of processed foods and do not care much for nutrition and exercise. Veganism is a moral stance on animal exploitation for human gain. However, those focussed on a whole-foods-plant-based diet, many of whom are vegan too, do have good health outcomes.
Aug 08, 2023 at 9:15 am
Agreed. It is referred to as a “diet” however by most humans. I think it makes them more comfortable than admitting animal suffering is also involved. “diet” is so impersonal.
Aug 10, 2023 at 1:14 am
Veganism has these two problems:
– The white savior complex hypocrisy (the white man “burden”)
– Their ingrained Western hegemony complex
It would be nice if they got rid of that and stop blaming native people around the world for issues that were created by Europeans and their offspring.
Just an example, whaling. They have the nerves to blame native tribes for traditional whaling when it’s mostly white people that have brought whales to extinction
http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/03/12/makah-tribe-hopes-resume-gray-whale-hunt
So native people have used to traditionally hunt whales for 2000 years for food without having endangered the species they hunt.
Then comes the white catastrophe: White people have colonized the American continent from south to north, stealing land and mass killing natives, also destroying animal species. (Like the Buffalo to starve the native people in North America) In the US alone historians estimate that there were 10 million indigenous peoples living in U.S. territory. But by 1900, the number had reduced to less than 300,000.
https://www.nationalgeographic.org/news/big-fish-history-whaling/
While many native people have hunted whales for food, it’s the Europeans that have made the most
damage as they hunted whales, scarified on the industrial revolution altar:
https://www.thoughtco.com/a-brief-history-of-whaling-1774068
And to day the major whalers are : Iceland, Norway, and Japan. You can see that 2 out of 3 whalers, are from Europe, Norway kills actually more whales than Japan and Iceland combined…
“According to a report by the Animal Welfare Institute, Norway killed more whales in 2015 and 2016 than Japan and Iceland combined, the only other two countries in the world where whaling remains legal in some form. The country has blatantly balked at the international moratorium, manipulating loopholes in both hunting practices and trade protocols.”
And whaling is one just one of example where white people create / have created problems and try to blame native people around the world.
Apr 20, 2019 at 1:13 pm
Just a minor nitpick but based on the above definition of veganism I can eat meat and still be vegan. Due to a health condition I am required to eat animal products because i can’t absorb certain nutrients from plants thus by minimizing the meat i eat to survive i am reducing to the best extent possible and practical the suffering of animals.
Dec 23, 2018 at 5:54 pm
If that were the case, then you could argue that you were vegan. You could say that you wouldn’t eat meat if you didn’t have to but need to to survive. The good news is that you won’t have to be party to paying somebody else to kill animals for you to get these nutrients that your body can’t absorb from plants, because cultured meat produced by in vitro cultivation of animal cells will soon be widely available.
What condition do you have?
Dec 24, 2018 at 11:44 am
Or you could kill your own meat requirement, or eat road kills animals.
Sep 05, 2019 at 5:22 pm
What healthy condition do you have that requires you to eat animal products? As far as I’m aware there isn’t any. Also if you can’t absorb certain nutrition, there are supplements for it you likely already take.
So why aren’t you vegan again?
Apr 20, 2021 at 3:31 am
Did you have a comprehensive blood test?. Who told you you had to continue eating animal stuff? a vegan doctor? just curious. There are some few humans who have slathered their intestines with animal fats and truly have trouble eating healthy plants. However, the medical system does not teach Dr’s about nutrition and most Dr’s are omnivore so they think from that perspective.
Years ago I had a naturopath tell me I needed more protein. He never once suggested to eat more beans
or nuts, but he did say, eat cheese or fish…….cheers.
May 02, 2022 at 7:34 pm
The vegan position is an all or nothing position either you are compassionate or you are not a vegan. Don’t get mad when the same all or nothing standard is applied to you.
Dec 23, 2018 at 5:37 pm
No. The position is actually the default position for a civilized society that opposes unnecessary violence, and the one that the majority claim to represent. It isn’t even a vegan construct; it is a societal one. Yet, when challenged on their behaviour, the majority seek any weak excuse possible to try and condone not adhering to their supposed principles. The majority justify their unnecessary violence on the basis that those who do their best to avoid causing unnecessary violence, suffering and pain are doing so in vain because it is impossible to so entirely – so what’s the point in trying?
“Veganism” simply shines a light on the absolute hypocrisy of a society that claims to be anti-violence, anti-oppression, and anti-slavery.
I’m not mad in the slightest. I stand by my principles every day. I endeavour to cause the least possible amount of suffering and pain to any sentient being that I can. The only anger I see is on the face of those who argue themselves into realizing they have no defense for the suffering they cause. But I empathize. I have been there too.
Dec 24, 2018 at 11:40 am
Thank you for an excellent perspective. It is true, society says one thing and does another!.
Human behavior in many ways is selfish and inconsistent. We say we want peace and love,
yet can be angry, jugemental, ungrateful, violent, closed-minded, and critical of others who share the truth we do not want to hear.
I have an omnivore friend who only consumes the “humanely” raised
animal products. She does not like it when i point out that all animals are killed at an early age against their will and do not want to die. She says “Oh, I know”. She is a good person but truly believes she cares about animals and is doing the right thing. Now, her cholesterol is high and she is going to eliminate most animal products from her diet. I am happy for her that she made this decision on her own. namaste’ from a 20+ year vegan.
May 02, 2022 at 7:44 pm
Thank you Rachel. It is strange. Everyone would agree they want a less violent world, yet the majority ignore the elephant in the room. Congratulations on 20 years! It was the best thing I’ve ever done
May 03, 2022 at 9:34 am
Thank you Peter for being who you are. It took me a while to understand the courage and determination it takes to be different in a world of, honestly, conformists. To be different means you swim upstream and face potential ridicule and also multiple criticisms from many family, friends and co-workers. Vegans are called arrogant, self-righteous, and malnourished! what a combination!. We are told “do what you want, but don’t tell me what to do or eat”, which is a way of stating that person is afraid of listening to the truth. It is true, studies show vegans are typically deficient in several nutrients and we need to acknowledge that. Yet studies also consistently shows that omnivores have several deficiencies, and that an animal-based diet leads to environmental destruction and pollution, multiple health problems, plus slaughter of 70 billion animals, environmental destruction, and in my opinion, to an angry, aggressive, and violent world. “Hunters” and trophy hunters are not peaceful humans, they enjoy violence and the thrill of doing so. Many criticisms are defenses against us doing our best to expose lies versus truths and save animals, the environment, and human health. Every other “dietary choice” (and veganism is much more than diet) promotes the exploitation of animals by eating them.
I am not nor have I ever been superior or better than other humans, whether I have been vegan (or previously an omnivore). I am human and have made good choices in my life and also mistakes. I became vegan because it felt ethically and morally right and just to do so and I have never regretted it. I made the animals more important than my palate for eating their flesh, blood, dairy products, and eggs,. Over the years I had to adjust my food choices and make whole foods the focus. I believe however in revealing injustices and inconsistencies, similar to what all social justice movements do as well as abolitionists from 220 years did. The fact is that society and humans do not like to change. We want to do what we do when we want to do it. Our “dietary” choices are very emotional , ingrained, and personal to us. And the animal agriculture industries and society have convinced humans that eating animals is the 4 n’s, all the while hiding the horror shoe behind it, and we bought into it. And truth-tellers get in the way of those things.
But cruelty and death is an integral part of eating animals, whether they are raised in factories or, idyllic pastures. No animal wants to die. namaste’, rachel
May 04, 2022 at 8:02 pm
Really don’t care too much about any of it anymore to be honest. Past caring about the human species too the nature of whom will never change. Education will not change the nature of mankind because we are primarily selfish. The world will never be governed by selfless people.
Jun 26, 2018 at 1:42 pm
You and I are part of the human species. We have the power individually to make positive change. I agree with you, the people that are in charge are generally driven by ego, self-serving interests = power/money. However, we can influence the way power governs by choosing where we spend our money.
For example, when the apartheid existed in South Africa, millions of people in the UK refuse to buy South African goods, in particular fruits and vegetables. This was an example of individual people coming together collectively to wield their economic power and show their opposition to the status quo and their determination to see change.
Of course education is important. Children look to adults for guidance, for advice, for approval. They look to their parents, to their teachers and to other adults in society. How we behave, and the opinions that we hold, will shape the next generation.
It is very difficult to get people to change on the basis that it will be for the greater good of others, because primarily people are driven by self preservation and put themselves before others. I would argue that this is human nature. But if you can show people that they too will also reap the benefits, and that there is happiness to be found in community and collectively making a change that will benefit wider society, I think people will be more open.
Regarding your previous comment on the other post about vegans preaching, I do understand that many vegans employ an approach that people find intimidating and evangelical, and because of religion and the way that is been forced onto people unwillingly in the past, people naturally conflate the two as one of the same. But it really isn’t the same. We talk about facts.
Choosing to eat more fruits and vegetables is a positive thing, reducing suffering and unnecessary pain for animals is a positive thing, reducing environmental destruction is positive thing; all these things will benefit all of us.
When it comes to the animal-rights side of the veganism, there is no gentle way to show someone a video of an animal being unnecessarily tortured. And these things need to be seen. People need to be aware that the animal agriculture industry is horrific, it is evil. And I think vegan or not, it is all of our responsibility to do something about it, not least because it is so harmful to the environment – something that Greenpeace sadly are to politically/funding motivated to talk about to the level of exposure it deserves.
Jun 26, 2018 at 2:15 pm
Did it ever occur to you that the rich countries boycotting agricultural products from poor folks in those countries you claim to represent is actually harming them? Its never so black and white. Vegans basically are spoiled dicks. If they had to survive in the wild they would be the first to go. First world problems from an arrogant spoiled and economically advantaged elite.
Aug 20, 2018 at 6:23 am
Absolutely. It is never black-and-white, but your comments suggest that you do believe it is black-and-white. Your name handle ” Not a vegan. I am an ecologist” is surprising since you seemingly haven’t thought about or researched this topic much.
800 million people are hungry today not because vegans are avoiding buying meat and dairy products but because the majority of those people 20 to 30 years ago used to grow their food and feed themselves. World hunger is created by destroying people’s capacity to feed themselves, which includes both the destruction of small scale farming systems as well as the destruction of people’s entitlements to land and resources – through a highly inequitable economic structure which creates corporate welfare by robbing the poor of their welfare.
70% of the world today is still fed by small-scale farming. Most of the food needs of the poorer parts of humanity are met through independent small scale farming and people knowing how to feed themselves. Biodiversity will feed the world, not big corporations moving into second and third World countries to buy up vast swaths of land to graze cattle and grow mono-crops to feed cattle, and the employing the poor as corporate slaves to produce food for the “richer” countries of the world.
50% of the world’s grain is used to feed livestock. Why is this grain not being used to help feed 800 million hungry people?
It takes on average 2,500 gallons of water to produce pound of beef. Why not put that water to proper use and grow more and more fruit, vegetables, beans, etc?
91% of rainforest destruction is directly attributable to animal agriculture.
51% of all greenhouse gas emissions are attributable to the animal agriculture industry.
I could go on.
Corporate welfare/big agriculture and its subsequent environmental destruction, and the robbing of people’s ability to learn how to grow food and feed themselves is responsible for poverty. Not veganism.
At its core, veganism promotes sustainability and biodiversity, and the nurturing of ecosystems and preservation of our planet.
These are not first world problems, as you put it: these are planetary problems caused humans.
Despite your childish insult I will address the last part of your comment: Had you bothered to engage in a conversation with a vegan or read the definition you would know that vegans would have exactly the same chance as everyone else to survive in “the wild”. I have never met a vegan who wouldn’t eat meat if it was necessary. That would be plain stupid.
I have said it a million times in replying to these tired comments that: yes, if I was stuck on a desert island, or in the middle of a jungle, and the only thing there was to eat was wild animals then I would be the first to kill an animal to stave off hunger.
However, unlike the large majority of people, I would have no problem doing it: stabbing it, skinning it, gutting it and barbecuing it. This is a situation where it would be necessary for me to kill an animal to survive. And, you see, that is the point of the veganism. You do not need to unnecessarily kill animals when you have other food sources that support a healthy and environmentally friendlier existence. You certainly do not need to have a factory farming industry that purposely breeds, enslaves, rapes, abuses and kills animals unnecessarily. Which as we know, is having a detrimental effect on not just the animals, but the environment and the health of society as a whole.
You say: “First world problems from an arrogant spoiled and economically advantaged elite”.
I think you’ll find that 99.9% of vegans are far from part of the advantaged elite. The only arrogance here is your arrogance in thinking that you can continue to support, for your own selfish gain, an industry that is essentially destroying the planet that supports your existence. It is your arrogance and your economic advantage that enables you to pay someone else to initiate violence on defenceless sentient beings to satisfy your desire to eat their flesh, which you do not need to do.
You are not living in the wild, cut off from humanity and hiding out because of some super virus that is killing the world. You are not living in a cave in northern Europe during a freezing winter 10,000 years ago. If either of those situations occur, by all means kill the animals you need to survive; though expect to be killed by another human if they see you first.
Aug 20, 2018 at 9:49 am
Peter, I have found that most angry commentors and comments do not choose to listen to the truth. They have their own free-will. They believe in the “nutrition” of eating animals. They want to believe what they believe and hate veganism because it threatens the normalcy of eating animals. It is certainly difficult to hear the truth when you enjoy regularly eating flesh, blood, eggs, and dairy. What do the angry commentors stand for? who do they stand up for? Do they love their cats and dogs? do they believe in hunting? trophy hunting? do they stand up for the right to raise, breed, rape, slaughter and eat animals?. yikes. Ironically, 99% of all vegans today were raised as omnivores, as I was…….
May 06, 2022 at 11:16 pm
Spot on. The anger is because it threatens the normalcy of eating animals, veganism makes you look in the mirror. After so many years living this way I feel like it’s almost pointless to “convince” people. You have to arrive at this place yourself, through questioning of the system as a whole: of education, of the food pyramid, of the money trail, etc.
I see so much of the indoctrination that I didn’t see before, in cartoons, adverts, even in my daughter’s school reading books, and even down to teaching us from a young age that humans are omnivores, which, biologically speaking, they aren’t.
It’s strange. Why do we do it when we don’t need to. I can’t wrap my head around it. Food production, technology and supplementation makes it so that every human can have a really healthy diet without causing the suffering and destruction that animal agriculture causes. It’s outdated, yet we are programmed to cling to it like it’s a religion.
May 09, 2022 at 11:17 am
agreed in multiple ways. humans get mad at the reality of what vegans say
because it reflects on them. also humans don’t want to change and have
someone reminding themselves of what they are doing. Humans like eating
animals, thats’ a fact, and they do not want to think of animals as worthy
of their lives.
May 10, 2022 at 1:04 am
That’s funny, I am a vegan, I’ve been studying books on foraging, you know that thing our ancestors did more than they hunted? There seems to be an abundance of edible things in the US midwest. I think you misspoke, as it’d be the average person who’d go first if anything. Here soon I plan on checking out books of recipes by Native Americans that aren’t solely meat recipes, I believe one is even aimed at vegetarians of all people, I’d like to see the recipes to think on how I’d veganize them. I’ve met two others into foraging, who coincidentally ended up being vegan as well. Given I live below poverty (as a vegan even), it bothers me I’m surrounded by things I could be eating, so I’ve started researching and looking further into it all.
Oct 28, 2019 at 12:04 am
That’s an interesting subject Tori. My father’s girlfriend has been picking mushrooms for a number of years. They recently sent me a picture of loads of wild mushrooms they’d picked. No one should do this without knowing what they are doing (can be dangerous if you pick the wrong ones) but there are local courses you can go on to learn. I’ve been looking into it and as it turns out, in the UK in particular, mushrooms used to be a staple during autumn and winter, providing protein and vitamin D among other vital nutrients. The knowledge required to pick the correct varieties used to be passed down through generations but has largely been lost because food is now mostly processed through factories and generally in abundance in the western world. There are so many edible plants that we simply discard as weeds. Dandelion is one i wrote about recently: https://www.theplantway.com/dandelion-benefits-health/
Oct 28, 2019 at 9:26 am
Hah, yes, they joke in mushroom groups all mushrooms are edible, some are edible only once. I want to learn to make spore prints and all of that which goes into identifying them. Yes, there are a lot of edible weeds in my foraging books. I even once just trying to get out for a walk, went into the woods by my mom’s house and saw these bright orange things off in the distance. Turned out they are jewelweed and they are edible. The seeds people compare to the taste of walnuts.. Though I saw someone say to go slow eating them because most people’s bodies currently aren’t used to such nutrient-dense foods. It seemed sort of sad that would be the case, not that jewelweed is poisonous or toxic, that it’s just too nutrient-dense for some people’s bodies. Reminded me of how much more I want to change what I eat, beyond just eating vegan.
Oct 29, 2019 at 1:25 pm
Wow, i have never thought of myself as a spoiled dick. I actually eat low on the food chain, mostly fruits, vegetables, beans, nuts and grains. (I do not spend the high prices on vegan packaged or processed foods), However, maybe I am spoiled with an abundance of these whole foods. Poor countries citizens actually eat a lot of beans and rice. This was the case when I visited the Belize area over ten years ago.
It is poor citizens of countries where farmers sell their grains and crops for high prices to rich countries to feed farm animals that are a major problem. Those citizens cannot afford the high prices for the grains. Also, 80% of rainforests are cut down and destroyed to grow SOY to feed cattle so humans can have their steaks.
Ironically it is the rich “elite” who own the factory farms and massive cattle operations in the USA. It is the hard-working struggling humans who try to eek out a living raising chickens for Purdue and Tyson, where they are competing against other chicken farmers. It is the rich
“elite” who profit from the slaughter of 9 billion chickens in the USDA for us to eat.
Ironically, it is poor areas where factory farms are placed. Neighbors to the factory farms are assaulted with smells of ammonia, manure lagoons, and rotting corpses. They have pollution in their air, soil and water and get sick from living near these animal holocausts. Poor people and immigrants also make up the vast majority of those working in slaughterhouses and meat-packing plants. There is a high turnover of workers because they are taken advantage of and also suffer physical and mental injuries. When a slaughterhouse moves into a town, rates of crime and sexual and domestic assaults, skyrocket. Humans who eat animals need to consider the cruelty and harm done to the workers putting flesh, blood, dairy and eggs on their tables. Let them pick vegetables, fruits and grains as a contrast. Cheers…..
May 06, 2022 at 7:10 pm
Susifelton: So, you admit it. You don’t care about human beings. You love animals and hate humans. At least a vegan is telling the truth for once.
Jul 26, 2018 at 5:50 am
Telling the truth for once? This is grossly inaccurate. The reason people find veganism so challenging is because it exposes uncomfortable truths, which on a day-to-day basis we have culturally buried under the carpet:
Truth 1: We unnecessarily slaughter billions of animals, keeping them in terrible conditions, feeding them an unnatural diet, injecting them with antibiotics and steroids, and playing God with their lives. Unnecessarily.
Truth 2: Animal agriculture is the biggest pollutant of our planet: the biggest polluter of the air, the biggest destroyer of rainforests and land in general.
Truth 3: the consensus scientific literature shows that a plant-based diet (not a vegan diet, because a vegan diet can be any diet full of foods that don’t include animal products – processed, etc) is the superior diet for prevention, and in some cases reversal, of disease ( heart disease, type II diabetes, colon cancer, etc).
The longest living, healthiest societies known to man are those who have lived or are living on a primarily plant-based diet, with meat and dairy intake at less than 5%.
Tarahumara – Chihuahua. Mexico
Okinawans, Japan
Nicoya, Costa Rica
Ikaria, Greece
Sardinia, Italy
Loma Linda, Calif., U.S.A.
(Known as the Blue Zones)
Vegans spend their lives exposing truth.
Jul 26, 2018 at 9:18 am
Oh Peter, you are fkn hysterical!! 😂 Do you have a Twitter to follow?
Aug 23, 2019 at 9:35 pm
@nomeatnodairy . I’m not really much of a tweeter though.
Aug 27, 2019 at 10:47 am
OMG, the fire hatred is directed at the vegans!. Psychologically it makes it easier than directing
responsibility for a cruel diet, despite the enjoyment of it, to oneself!. Attack and fire. I know omnivores who can’t stand humans. If for some reason a vegan does “hate” those who eat dead bodies, does that discount the empathy and compassion that we have for non-human animals?. Of course not. It is so easy to criticize vegans, isn’t it! I am sure you can find dozens of more ways!.
While I was omnivore I never lashed out at the truthful vegans. I actually looked inward at my own choices and realized they needed to change. I could no longer participate in a lifestyle that supported the death and suffering of animals. I grew up with doggies and loved them as animals. I felt selfish to harm animals to eat them. I did not want to be a graveyard for their bodies.
Over the years I am proud to have saved thousands of farm animal lives, because I chose to eat plants instead. And I have also helped humans by handing out hundreds of pages of free information about eating more plants and the benefits of such. I guess that implies I feel I am superior!.
What is amazing is how many paid animal agriculture trolls are on sites like this one. Their goal is to spread hatred, criticize, and stop others from being vegan. Peace be with you.
May 06, 2022 at 11:07 pm
Indeed. As an omnivore I never criticized vegans. It conflicted with the information I was being taught but it fascinated me and I respected their non-harmful way of life.
My uncle (a vegan) used to protest outside McDonald’s in the town when I was a kid. Some family members would make jokes about it, in a derogatory way, yet seeing those leaflets planted a seed that grew over time. Instinctively I knew it was wrong.
May 09, 2022 at 11:21 am
You can believe that if you choose to!.
I believe in personal freedoms. I admit that. And we all have the right to make our own choices through our free-will. I grew up in an omnivore home wher I never heard the world vegan. I was taught that eating animals was normal. I never knew any different and I believed it. But, after several incidents, and seeing a short video about how animals were really treated, I changed.
I did not argue with what I saw, I simply realized that all animals suffer, experience, pain and horror when they are killed.
There are billions of humans in the world and we are all imperfect, regardless of the specific choices we make. Making the choice to not eat animals is not about perfection, nor saying I am superior because I am vegan. Making choices to eat animals is not about perfection, nor about superiority either. However, caring about animals by not eating them is a very conscious choice.
However, imagine a world that is peaceful, loving and kind for all beings and humans. What does that look like for you and how would you go about achieving that?.
Does peace create through war, anger, rage, violence, hatred, and bloodshed?
Who do you speak up for who has no voice?
When animals are slaughtered, are they peaceful? are they smiling and happy to have their
short life ended to feed humans? are they grateful to be sacrificed to die?
Of course not.
If you know anything about frequency and vibration, you would know that humans can feel and
absorb the emotions of others. Have you ever been in a room where someone is very angry and you can feel that? you will want to exit the room, dear, because it does not “feel” good,
Now, imagine the animals going to and in the slaughterhouse. They are anxious, nervous and scared. They have more awareness of what is going on thatn we can imagine. They can smell
FEAR in other animals. They can smell BLOOD and sense terror in other animals. Their adrenaline and stress hormones surge. Their will to live kicks in as their breathing shallows, their heart rate increases, and they feel intense fear, grief, worry, and feelings of betrayal against humans. They are frightened for their life, and, resist their own death, as you and I would.
Then, they are killed (although some are still alive as they are skinned and dismembered). All of these emotions store in their body that humans eat. And we absorb those negative emotions and become and “are what we eat”. It is not a peaceful meal at all. And, it never, ever, creates a peaceful, loving, kind world for all of us. As we are creating and eating violence through their flesh.
I believe that our creator intended humans to live in peace and harmony with the animals, nature, and other humans. Life is truly about Love, that is the most important way we can live and be. We were never designed to be violent. I am choosing to live in a loving, kind, peaceful world for all of us. All humans, not just vegans. Its’ not about me, but about the message that is clear. I am aware that eating the death of animals will never, ever, create a loving and peaceful world for ALL of us.
Aug 07, 2023 at 6:31 pm
Great article! Well said. Totally agree with you.
This reminds me of what some scientists are saying about global warming…that it’s not caused by humans. People hear this and draw the conclusion that we don’t need to do anything about humanities’ carbon footprint, which is a ridiculous conclusion.
Even if global warming is a long-term cycle that is not created by earthlings (I’m not sure about that myself). it doesn’t mean that we should throw in the towel and continue to pollute the crap out of our precious planet!
It’s still our duty and responsibility to be good stewards of Gaia and to do everything possible to clean up the mess we humans HAVE created, which ultimately means completely changing the way we live so as to BE in harmony with Nature and all of her inhabitants.
There is no doubt that we need to continue to transition into renewable resources, stop creating nuclear waste, clean the lakes, rivers, and oceans, treat animals and Nature with love and respect….and the list goes on and on….
Anyway, that’s my comparison and my pet peeve. 🙂
Jun 13, 2018 at 10:13 pm
Exactly Jill. It’s a great comparison and part of the same subject matter. We know plastic is a huge pollutant that is killing our oceans. We know car emissions are polluting the air we breathe. Regardless of global warming, these things are hurting us – so why not make a change!?
Jun 15, 2018 at 9:12 pm